The AD8422 chip is producing too much noise

Can someone help me figure out why the AD8422 is generating excessive noise?

I have connected two AD8422 chips in series with a total gain of 100,000x.

The first chip, with shorted inputs, is set to a gain of 1,000 using a 20Ω resistor, and the second chip amplifies by 100x using a 200Ω resistor.

However, at the output, I am measuring 800mV of noise, while I expected 0.8mV, which is 1,000 times less.

8 nV × 100000 = 800000 nV = 0.8 mV

800 mV/ 0.8 mV = 1000 times.

The datasheet shows the characteristics

► Low noise and distortion
► 8 nV/√Hz maximum input voltage noise at 1 kHz

I am connecting the AD8422 according to this schematic

Hello @slava,

Recommend a few changes to your PCB:

  • lower the resistance to reduce thermal noise
  • include power supply decoupling capacitors as close as possible to the IC
  • implement a full ground plane
  • minimize the track length
  • run pos and neg traces on opposite sides of the board but on top of each other for magnetic coupling

For more information. please see this resource:

Best wishes,

APDahlen

P.S. Keep going as you are on the track to discover many meaningful things.

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Please note that the input noise specification for the amplifier is 8 nV /√Hz. It is NOT simply 8nV.

Noise is related to bandwidth, and the 2.2MHz bandwidth of the amplifier in question is much, much greater than the 1Hz that a person assumes by ignoring the /√Hz part.

Correctly estimating the amount of noise one can expect out of an op amp circuit is not a simple matter. Some guidance can be found in TI’s slva043 document, ADI’s MT-047, and others such as that mentioned above.

Only 800mV of noise actually isn’t bad here. With a gain of 100K, even a slight odor of external noise coupling to the input would be enough to make the output bounce between the supply rails.

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  1. Changed the resistance from 470 kOhm to 50 kOhm.

  2. I forgot to draw, but the 100 nanofarad capacitors were already soldered.

  3. I disconnected all the incoming circuits where there are 1 kOhm resistors, protective diodes, they are not shown on the board for a better understanding of the circuit, and shorted the chip inputs +IN and -IN and to the midpoint.

  4. Positive track and negative track can not yet quickly make, it is necessary to completely redesign the board, the idea is good, I like it, I will apply.

  5. For the whole board I made an iron box, a screen, and soldered the middle power point to the screen.

Unfortunately the result is not noticeable. I expected better. I bought the microchips on digikey.

I needed them to amplify the biopotentials of the head, and it worked. I put two electrodes on my head, one on my ear.
And when you blink your eyes, you can see it on the oscilloscope.

But here recently I learned about the beautiful characteristics of the AD8428 chip which is connected in parallel four pieces to reduce noise.

No Pain High Gain: Building a Low-Noise Instrumentation Amplifier with Nanovolt Sensitivity

AD8428 datasheet

Low noise: 1.5 nV/√Hz input voltage noise

And the AD8422 has 8 nV noise.

Let four AD8428’s give 10 times less noise.

And theoretically I will get 80 millivolts at 100000 times gain. I’d like to do better.

So before buying the AD8428 I decided to deal with my AD8428, which has good characteristics according to the datasheet, and it seems to be less noisy, let’s say 100 times, it would suit me.

At the moment I’m using the AD8422 chip not only for taking head biopotentials, but also for photodiode, phototransistor.

So if you’re into that, can you recommend an amplifier for the photodiode, it’s kind of a transimpedance amplifier.

I’d like to have a million times gain with minimal noise. 1000000 times. For example, two chips in series amplify each by a factor of 1000. If the noise is 1 nanovolt, ideally I would like to have noise at 1000000 times gain of only 1 millivolt.
Suppose I connected two amplifiers in series, short-circuited the inputs so that no signal gets through, and I get 1 millivolt at the output, that would be cool. Is there a solution to that? Can you help me find it? Or as low noise as possible, like down to 10 millivolts. So that I really soldered, and I worked, please if there is a solution, offer knowledgeable and knowledgeable in this. And it is desirable to be able to adjust the gain.

Hello @APDahlen maybe you know something about photomultiplier tubes, roughly what is the noise situation in it for the same gain of 100000 times or a million times 1000000, how much noise will I get?

You can also compare the best chips and photomultiplier in terms of noise.

Whoever knows the answer, write.

Hello @APDahlen How about powering a high gain amp with shielded wires?

Hello @slava,

Shielding should help.

However, there are many sources of noise, as we previously explored.

A few random thoughts for your consideration:

  • Recall that noise, along with signal, is amplified by each stage. Focus your energy on the first stage.

  • There may be benefits to operating with op amps or discrete devices in parallel. This seems counterintuitive, yet noise (uncorrelated) for parallel devices is not always additive.

  • Recommend you explore this book by Douglas Self. It explored many techniques for low noise audio circuits:

Sincerely,

Aaron

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Sorry @slava,

Photomultiplier tubes are outside of my wheelhouse.

In the past I have referred to Detectors | Hamamatsu Photonics

Please let us know if you decide to go down that road.

Sincerely,

Aaron

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Diagram for better understanding

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Hello @slava,

A few random thoughts for your consideration:

  • The AD8422 is a fine instrumentation amplifier. There may or may not be others that are better suited for your application such as the ultralow noise AD8429 or the MAX40078.

  • Noise is related to gain. It may be better to lower gain on the first stage.

  • Would the project operate with direct coupling between the amplifiers?

  • The noise performance is dependent on the sensor plus connections to the sensor.

  • It may be time to commit to copper and explore the noise associated with the layout.

Please let us know how your design progresses.

Best wishes,

APDahlen

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Hello @APDahlen

That’s how I wanted to first amplify the signal two thousand times by microchip AD8428 four pieces in parallel + AD8429 500 times and get 100000 times.

But based on previous experience, I’ll get 80 millivolts of noise. And I would like to have even less noise, so that’s why I’m dealing with my circuit first.

It sounds like you are well on you way to success.

I wish you well and hope you have fun in the process.

Sincerely,

Aaron

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Hi @slava ,
Your second amp’s +input is biased to the negative supply. You won’t get anything sensible out from that amp. Connect R3 to ground.
Cheers, heke

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Hi @heke

Checked the schematic, I made a mistake when I drew it, resistor R3 is connected to ground. Thanks for the comment.

Corrected Scheme.

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Could the noise be going from output to input, kind of looping, on the yellow track? If so, what should I do about it?

Possibly @slava,

A few general observations:

  • the tracks are excessively large which opens up the opportunity for coupling.
  • the signal tracks could pick up noise from the supply tracks.
  • the resistors are large with long circuit traces

Adding a solid ground plane would go a long way to improve circuit performance. Use multiple low inductance via when connecting to the ground plane. Minimizing the circuit would also help using the smalled workable components physically located close to the associate op amps…

See @heke previous comment about the negative rail. I wonder if DC coupling would be beneficial.

Sincerely,

Aaron

P.S. Can you share your PCB when complete?

2 Likes

Hello @APDahlen

I agree, and we need to move to cmd components, they are small, then everything else will be smaller. And also for the board to be double sided, some tracks should be on the other side with through holes.

And shield not only the whole board, but each operational amplifier separately.